Cooperstown Chronicles – Jack Morris

Jan 19, 2008

Photo courtesy of TSN Archives/Icon SMI

1991.  Game 7.  Minnesota Twins vs. Atlanta Braves.  Jack Morris vs. John Smoltz.  In perhaps the best postseason performace of the modern era, Jack Morris throws ten innings of shutout ball to deliver a World Series to Minnesota 1-0.  That’s the stuff that legends are made of.  That’s just one reason he belongs in the Hall of Fame.  Jack Morris won World Series titles with three different teams (Detroit in ’84, Minnesota in ’91, and Toronto in ’92).  His World Series record is 3-0 with a 2.96 ERA.  He’s 6-1 in 13 career playoff starts.  He had more wins in the 80′s (162) than any other pitcher.  Dave Steib is the next closest with 140.  In my mind, he should take his place with baseball’s greats in the Hall of Fame.  His dominance is equaled by his durability.  He made over 500 consecutive starts without missing his turn in the rotation.  He also owns a no-hitter (1984 vs. the White Sox).

Image courtesy of Icon SMI

The Numbers
254 Wins (40th All-time)
3.90 ERA
2478 Strikeouts (31st All-time)
3824 Innings (49th All-time)
527 starts (35th All-time)
175 Complete Games
28 Shutouts

The Awards
World Series MVP
5 All-Star Appearances
Received MVP votes in 5 seasons
Recieved Cy Young votes in 7 seasons

Top Ten Finishes
Wins – 12 Times (Led league in ’81 & ’92)
ERA – Five Times
Strikeouts – 8 Times (Led league ’83)
Innings – 9 Times (Led league in ’83)
Starts – 11 Times (Led league in ’90 & ’91)
Complete Games – 10 Times (Led league in ’90)
Shutouts – 8 Times (Led league in ’86)
Winning Percentage – 5 Times

Gone are the days of 300 wins careers.  With five-man rotations, you just don’t start enough games to reach the plateau.  If the voters can’t look past not reaching that mark, starting pitching will got the way of the dinosaur in terms of the Hall of Fame.  There has to be more to it than just numbers.  If someone is a top five pitcher for  a decade with a history of big games in the postseason and unmatched durability, he’s a Hall of Famer in my book.    

The Baseball Page

Past Chronicles
Bert Byleven
Andre Dawson
Dale Murphy
Mark McGwire
Bobby Matthews
Tommy John
Buck O’Neill & Minnie Minoso
Jim Rice
Ted Simmons
Lee Smith

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29 Responses so far | Have Your Say!

  1. gary zwillinger
    June 20th, 2008 at 1:52 pm #

    Here’s something I wrote



    In his first year of eligibility for the Baseball Hall of Fame in 2001, Jack Morris received 101 out of a possible 515 votes cast (19.61%). In his second year, Morris received a similar number and percentage (97 votes out of 472 votes cast – 20.55%). His third year bumped that percentage to approximately 23%. Over the last few years, his numbers have risen to 42.1%. In order to be elected, a candidate must receive at least 75% of the votes cast.

    The question is why would the man who: (i) won more games than any major league pitcher during the decade of the 1980’s; (ii) is generally credited with having pitched the defining 7th game of a World Series; (iii) whose 254 career wins exceeds the career win totals of Hall of Famers Carl Hubbell, Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson, Jim Bunning, Hal Newhouser and Bob Lemon, among others, and (iv) was called by Hall of Fame baseball writer Peter Gammons, the “best of his time, especially when it counted. It never dawned on me that he wouldn’t be a first-ballot winner”; be on a course to languish among the large group of “good but not worthy” pitchers over the course of a “solid” career.

    The answer, as set forth in this presentation, is that the absence of one or two magnificent “career” years or one meteoric statistic has allowed a clearly worthy Hall of Fame career to be obscured.

    The purpose of this presentation is to set the record straight and make the case for Jack Morris’ entry into the Hall of Fame.


    The game of comparisons among pitchers from different decades is a tricky one. The use of the total number of wins as the basis for either side of an argument (e.g. Morris won 70 less games than Don Sutton but was clearly more dominant and worthy, or Morris won 89 more games than Sandy Koufax but never reached his heights) provides support for Mark Twain’s distrust for statistics. However, a pitcher’s dominance in comparison to the other pitchers of his time, during the bulk and prime of an extended career, must be a valid yardstick for analysis.

    Morris’ prime was the 14-year period from 1979-1992 (he pitched only 151 innings before 1979 and only 2 years after 1992). During that period, his 233 wins were not only the most by a major league pitcher, they were shockingly the most by 41 games (Bob Welch was next at 192, 174 for Dave Stieb and 168 for Nolan Ryan).

    The purpose of this analysis is not to detract from Nolan Ryan, but it’s hard to ignore that during a 14 year period of what is Ryan’s “second prime” (it is, after all, Ryan’s longevity and strikeout numbers which propelled him into the Hall so overwhelmingly), Morris outwins the near unanimous first rounder by 65 games.

    It’s instructive that 14 consecutive years seems to be an accurate yardstick for great pitchers who stake their Cooperstown claim on the strength of their “prime” (we’ll call them the “Prime Pitchers”) as opposed to the group of great pitchers who base their claims on longevity (we’ll call them the “Endurers”).

    Step back 10 years from Morris’ prime and look at the great pitchers of the late 60’s and 70’s. In what is the prime of the great Tom Seaver (1969-1982 – remember 1969 is the “Miracle Mets” year when Seaver wins 25), Seaver wins one game less than Morris in his 14 year prime (233 for Morris and 232 for Seaver). The 14-year period from 1961 to 1974 for Bob Gibson shows Gibson winning 242 games, 9 more than Morris. Jim Palmer’s 14 year prime (1969-1982) has him winning 240 games (7 more than Morris). Steve Carlton’s 14-year prime (1969-1982) is the best of that era at 258 wins followed by Gaylord Perry (14-year prime from 1966-1979) at 255 wins. Ferguson Jenkins’ 14 year prime (1967-1980) is next at 251 wins. Other than the somewhat earlier era career of Warren Spahn (the tops at 270 during his 14 year prime from 1947-1960), the only other two post World War II pitchers to win more than Jack Morris in their 14 consecutive year primes are Greg Maddux ( 1987-2000 – 238 wins – 5 more than Morris) and Juan Marichal (1961-1974 – 237 wins – 4 more than Morris). All of the above are Hall of Famers (including the certain future entry of Maddux)

    The following Prime Pitchers fall short of Morris’ 233 wins in his 14-year prime:

    • Whitey Ford (1953-1966) 225 wins (Hall of Famer)
    • Jim Bunning (1957-1970) 221 wins (Hall of Famer)
    • Roger Clemens ((1986-1999) 231 wins (Certain Future Hall of Famer)
    • Don Drysdale (1956-1969) full career – 209 wins (Hall of Famer)
    • Tom Glavine (1987-2000) 208 wins (Maybe Future Hall of Famer)
    • Dennis Martinez (1977- 1990) 159 wins (Unlikely Hall of Famer)
    • Robin Roberts (1949-1962) 227 wins (Hall of Famer)
    • Bob Welch (1979-1992) 192 wins (Unlikely Hall of Famer)

    When we jump to the “Endurers” and give each of them the benefit of the doubt by counting only their “best” 14 years as the basis for the comparison (rather than any one 14 year consecutive period) Morris’ case for immediate entry into Cooperstown is only strengthened. The near unanimous first rounder, Nolan Ryan’s best 14 years gives him 10 less wins than Morris’ prime (Morris’ 233 wins to Ryan’s 223 wins). Bert Blyleven’s so far unsuccessful attempt is based on longevity and strikeouts. Blyleven’s best 14 years are the same as Ryan’s – 223 wins and 10 less than Morris’ prime. Other relevant Endurers and their best 14 years are as follows:

    • Orel Hersheiser —196 wins —37 less than Morris’ Prime (Unlikely Hall of Famer)
    • Bob Feller —242 wins —9 more than Morris’ Prime (Hall of Famer)
    • Catfish Hunter —222 wins — 11 less than Morris’ Prime (Hall of Famer)
    • Jim Kaat — 228 wins — 5 less than Morris’ Prime (Maybe Future Hall of Famer)
    • Jimmy Key —185 wins — 48 less than Morris’ Prime (Unlikely Hall of Famer)
    • Phil Niekro — 236 wins — 3 more than Morris’ Prime (Hall of Famer)
    • Don Sutton —228 wins — 5 less than Morris’ Prime (Hall of Famer)
    • Early Wynn — 237 wins — 4 more than Morris’ Prime (Hall of Famer)
    • David Cone — 182 wins – 51 less than Morris’ Prime (Unlikely Hall of Famer)

    Whether it’s the “Prime Pitcher” analysis or the “Endurer” analysis, the answer is the same. The only pitchers greater than Morris are the consensus Hall of Famers: Seaver, Palmer, Gibson, Carlton, Jenkins, Perry, Marichal, Maddux (when he retires), Feller, Niekro, Spahn and Wynn. The others who have made it as well as those who haven’t are not at his level and the numbers bear that out.

    On a more typical time analysis, the winners of the most games in every decade in the 20th century are all existing. or in the singular case of the 1990′s and Greg Maddux, future Hall of Famers except for one; Jack Morris. The 00’s found Grover Cleveland Alexander as the pitcher with the most wins. The 10’s was led by Walter Johnson; the 20’s by Burleigh Grimes; the 30’s by Lefty Grove, and Hal Newhouser was the winningest pitcher in the 40’s. Probably more instructive is the comparison of Morris with the “modern” pitchers. When you make that comparison, Morris is right in the middle of that group and belongs with them in Cooperstown. They are as follows:

     1950’s Spahn 3 more wins than the next highest, Robin Roberts
     1960’s Marichal 33 more than the next highest, Don Drysdale
     1970’s Palmer 8 more than the next 3 highest, Jenkins, Seaver and Carlton
     1980’s MORRIS 22 more than next highest, Dave Stieb
     1990’s Maddux 12 more than next highest, Tom Glavine

    Jack Morris is in the rarified air that Hall of Famers occupy. His absence would be a great injustice.


    Morris’ curricula vitae is as follows:

    • Greatest 7th game pitching performance in World Series History (Game 7, 1991, 10 IP – 0 ER – 7 hits- Winning Pitcher in 1-0 victory over Braves)

    • One of the Innovators of the Split Fingered Fastball

    • 1979-1992 – 233 Wins- 41 more than the next highest total and 65 more than Nolan Ryan

    • 254 career wins in 527 starts – comparable to Jim Palmer’s 268 career wins in 521 starts (consider the talent of the Orioles teams over Palmer’s career against that of Morris’ Tigers)

    • 3 seasons with 20 wins or more – compared with Don Sutton’s 1 season- Jim Bunning’s 1 season

    • 5 seasons with 17 wins or more (but less than 20 wins). Ryan had 3 – 17+ seasons

    • 3824 innings pitched – 6X 250+ innings – 11X 200+ innings

    • Pitched on 4 World Champions – Ace of 3 of those teams with a World Series record of 4 wins – 2 losses and a 2.96 ERA in the World Series

    • Acknowledged big time clutch pressure pitcher

    • Unquestioned Pitcher of the 1980’s

    • Pitched a No-Hitter

    • Started 14 consecutive Opening Day games during his career, tying him with the great Walter Johnson for most consecutive Opening Day games

    • Acknowledged number one pitcher on 1984 Detroit Tigers – one
    of baseball’s all time great teams

    Absent from the c.v. is any Cy Young Award. He never led the league in ERA. He led
    the league in strikeouts only once, innings pitched only once and games won twice.


    The picture is clear. While he never dominated for one year in a Koufax or Gibson mode, he did, perhaps more importantly, dominate his era with a magnitude that is the equivalent, at least, of the greatest modern day pitchers. He was the clutch pitcher of his generation and his success in the World Series venue bears that out. When you stack up the numbers, Morris is outperformed only by the most “elite” pitchers of the modern day. Other than those most elite (Seaver, Palmer, Gibson, Carlton, Perry, Spahn, Maddux, Jenkins) existing Hall of Famers fall consistently short of his greatness.

    Morris is a Hall of Famer, plain and simple. The absence of a few stellar years or a Ryan like strikeout ability has to be the answer for the results of his first 2 years on the Hall of Fame ballot. BBWAA writers should take note and correct this mistake. Morris may not be the media friendly quote machine of someone like Palmer, but his dominance of his era over an extended career means he belongs there beside Palmer, Seaver, Gibson and Carlton in Cooperstown.

  2. LestersLegends
    June 20th, 2008 at 4:20 pm #

    gary – excellent case. I totally agree with you. Well, presented argument.

  3. Leafs7420
    December 20th, 2008 at 2:18 pm #

    I know this may not be as big of an issue, but he was the first pitcher to ever win a World Series in two different countries! It bothers me that he is not in the HoF but he would be a shoein for the Canadian Sports HoF. May not be as cool as Canton but…Excellent work on the blog and very good comment as well from Gary!!

  4. LestersLegends
    December 20th, 2008 at 3:39 pm #

    no doubt leafs. I don’t get it.

  5. Cooperstown Chronicles - Jesse Haines | 1800blogger
    May 7th, 2009 at 9:02 am #

    [...] (Manager) Carl Mays Bill Mazeroski* Fred McGriff Mark McGwire Bid McPhee Johnny Mize* Paul Molitor* Jack Morris Tony Mullane Dale Murphy Graig Nettles Hal Newhouser* Lefty O’Doul Tony Oliva Al Oliver Buck [...]

  6. Cooperstown Chronicles - Waite Hoyt | Fantasy Sports Blog
    May 20th, 2009 at 2:06 pm #

    [...] Carl Mays Bill Mazeroski* Fred McGriff Mark McGwire Bid McPhee Johnny Mize* Paul Molitor* Jack Morris Tony Mullane Dale Murphy Graig Nettles Hal Newhouser* Lefty O’Doul Tony Oliva Al Oliver Buck [...]

  7. Cooperstown Chronicles - Waite Hoyt | 1800blogger
    May 20th, 2009 at 2:09 pm #

    [...] (Manager) Carl Mays Bill Mazeroski* Fred McGriff Mark McGwire Bid McPhee Johnny Mize* Paul Molitor* Jack Morris Tony Mullane Dale Murphy Graig Nettles Hal Newhouser* Lefty O’Doul Tony Oliva Al Oliver Buck [...]

  8. Cooperstown Chronicles - Kiki Cuyler | Fantasy Sports Blog
    May 28th, 2009 at 7:53 am #

    [...] Carl Mays Bill Mazeroski* Fred McGriff Mark McGwire Bid McPhee Johnny Mize* Paul Molitor* Jack Morris Tony Mullane Dale Murphy Graig Nettles Hal Newhouser* Lefty O’Doul Tony Oliva Al Oliver Buck [...]

  9. Cooperstown Chronicles - Kiki Cuyler | 1800blogger
    May 28th, 2009 at 7:57 am #

    [...] (Manager) Carl Mays Bill Mazeroski* Fred McGriff Mark McGwire Bid McPhee Johnny Mize* Paul Molitor* Jack Morris Tony Mullane Dale Murphy Graig Nettles Hal Newhouser* Lefty O’Doul Tony Oliva Al Oliver Buck [...]

  10. Anonymous
    June 26th, 2009 at 2:31 pm #

    So then you think Dave Stieb and Jamie Moyer deserve it too, right? They’re just as good as Morris..

  11. LestersLegends
    June 26th, 2009 at 2:37 pm #

    How many 1-0 ten Inning World Series games did they win?

    5 All-Star games
    5 top-five cy young finishes

    moyer – 1 & 2

    stieb – 7 & 2

    Morris is a big game pitcher with 254 wins. I think he’s good enough for the HOF. You don’t that’s fine. You can come back with all your numbers, but the bottom line if I need to win a game, there aren’t many pitchers since 1980 that I would rather hand the ball to than Jack Morris.

  12. Anonymous
    June 26th, 2009 at 3:20 pm #

    Since 1980? RJ, Clemens, Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Schilling, Mussina, heck I’d even rather Pettite but that’s me….Mariano and Hoffman and Wagner count? What about Cone, Saberhagen, Blyleven, Gooden (Doc and Bret at their best).
    I don’t disagree with putting him in, I’m saying IF you put him in you HAVE to consider at least Stieb. Btw Moyer has what two fewer wins?

  13. LestersLegends
    June 26th, 2009 at 4:42 pm #

    I said a big game so Clemens is out. Mussina too. Closers don’t count unless they are gonna pitch the whole game. Cone, saberhagen, gooden…nope. not in a big game. Moyer is a compiler. Was he ever the ace of a pennant winning team? Stieb is close, but he’s not Jack Morris in my opinion.

  14. Anonymous
    June 27th, 2009 at 10:58 am #

    Moyer was the ace of the 2001 Seattle Mariners— the best team in baseball with 116 Regular Season Wins (Yes, 116 yet they did not win the WS). How is Clemens out? I’d take Clemens in a HEARTBEAT over Morris. No questions asked. Mussina too. At Gooden’s best (1985, which was better than any year Morris had), yes I’d take Doc. Did Morris win two Cy Youngs (Bret) or even one (David)?

    Player A: 3.44 ERA, 103 CG, 30 SHO, 122 ERA+, 1.245 WHIP, 7 All Star Games (Going by your standards).
    Player B: 3.90 ERA, 175 CG, 28 SHO, 105 ERA+, 1.296 WHIP, 5 All Star Games.

    Look now, I’m not saying that Jack Morris (Player B) DOES NOT deserve to go to Cooperstown. But the fact that his ERA+’s in his 20 Win years were 127, 117 and 102 makes me cautious. All I’m saying is how does Morris get 41.2 % of the HOF vote and Dave Stieb (Player A), who has better stats, get less than 20 votes? Can you tell me with a straight face there is over a 36.2 percentage gap between them? If one goes in, the other deserves to go in. And btw, Stieb WAS a better pitcher in the 1980′s.

    Stieb 1980s: 140-109, 92 CG, 27 SHO, 2328.2 IP, 127 ERA+, 1.221 WHIP, 1380 K
    Morris 1980s: 162-119, 133 CG, 20 SHO, 2443.2 IP, 109 ERA+, 1.256 WHIP, 1629 K

    So all Morris beats Stieb in aaaarrrreeee: IP (By 100 IP over ten years- nothing), CG (Yet Stieb has more Shutouts), and Wins (Wait, I can make a case Morris was NEVER a top FIVE pitcher in MLB during this decade. He was not the best pitcher of the 1980s. Neither was Dave, but he was better than Morris). They’re microscopically close and it’s ridiculous that one gets climbing support and one was knocked off in his first try. Stieb was simply better. If Wins and Cy Youngs are your lone argument it’s a sad argument. Either Morris and Stieb BOTH go in or NEITHER go in. And why would you want Morris in a big game if Stieb is more likely to throw a Shutout (30-28 in their career, Stieb made many less starts…27-20 in 1980′s). They were both good pitchers but Morris and Stieb go hand in hand..

  15. Anonymous
    June 27th, 2009 at 11:12 am #

    Player A: 4.22 ERA (105 ERA+) over 3825 IP, 1.325 WHIP (Ain’t you aren’t going to tell me it’s more difficult to prevent hits now than twenty years ago) and 2.10 K/BB
    Player B: 3.90 ERA (105 ERA+) over 3824 IP, 1.296 WHIP (Easier time shows disparity) and 1.78 K/BB.
    They provide the same career value over virtually identical periods of time. Compiler status would be 250 Wins over 5500 IP. That’s a compiler. What are their records? A is 251-191, B is 254-186, virtually identical. And for reference, Player B’s postseason ERA is 3.80, barely lower than his career ERA. Who are they? A is Moyer, B is Morris.

    Also, when the heck was Morris the ace of a pennant winner?
    Willie Hernandez and Dan Petry were better in 1984, Scott Erickson and Kevin Tapani were better in 1991, Juan Guzman and Jimmy Key were better in 1992. He was never the ace of a pennant winner.

    Peak by ERA+:
    Morris: 133, 127, 126, 124 124, 122…
    Moyer: 132, 130, 130, 130, 128, 126…
    THEY ARE THE SAME PITCHER. And Moyer was the second best pitcher of a 116 Game Winner behind Freddy Garcia. There’s no differentiating. You can put all three in but there is no way Morris goes in and Moyer/Stieb DON’T. All three or zero. I think Moyer and Morris will go in. For compiler Lester, just look at IP..

  16. LestersLegends
    June 27th, 2009 at 11:35 am #

    Morris was the ace of the 84 tigers and the 91 twins. The others may have had better records, but the ace faces the other teams ace every game. Like I said, if you had to win one game, morris is a guy I would take over tons of ptichers. He rose to the occasion. clemens never was a great big game pitcher. maybe a regular season game i take rocket, but in a game that means something i go morssi voer clemens every time.

    like i said you can pull the numbers out, but growing up in the 80′s jack morris was a feared pitcher and one of the very best of the decade. jamie moyer certainly has never had that fel. stieb was close, but he wasn’t jack.

  17. Anonymous
    June 27th, 2009 at 11:49 am #

    How was he the best pitcher on the 1984 Detroit Tigers when WILLIE HERNANDEZ won the MVP & Cy Young? Explain…
    The 1991 Twins had two pitchers MUCH MUCH better. Are you I don’t give two craps about his record:
    Kevin Tapani 1991: 16-9, 2.99 ERA (This?), 143 ERA+, & 1.086 WHIP
    Scott Erickson 1991: 20-8, 3.18 ERA (Did the other teams’ ace affect this?), 134 ERA+ (Or this?), & 1.275 WHIP (Or this?)
    Jack Morris 1991: 18-12, 3.43 ERA (This?), 124 ERA+ (This?) & 1.289 WHIP (This?).
    They had better peripherals. They had better seasons. What’s a big game? What do you define as a big game? In a big game I’d take the top five all-time pitcher over the barely hall of fame pitcher ANY DAY. ANY!Moyer’s statistics are the exact same though…..HHHMMMMM..

  18. Anonymous
    June 27th, 2009 at 12:05 pm #

    Look, I am not saying Morris doesn’t. I’m saying he’s severely overrated. You’d wanthe pitcher that sttistically was barely better than usual in the playoffs starting for you? Career-wise Lester….WHere would you rank him? I’d put him alongside Moyer, Stieb and David Wells around 85th All Time..

  19. Anonymous
    June 27th, 2009 at 12:11 pm #

    If I had a vote I might punch Stieb, Morris & Moyer’s ticket, and likely would.

  20. LestersLegends
    June 27th, 2009 at 12:15 pm #

    1984 WS: 2-0 with a 2.00 ERA & 0.889 WHIP, 2 Complete Games
    1991 WS: 2-0 with a 1.17 ERA & 1.174 WHIP, 10 Inning Complete Game

    Clemens pre-1997 playoff record: 1-2 with a 3.88 ERA. The rest of his playoff resume is suspect because of his steroid use.

    I’m not saying he’s better than Clemens, but if I had to win one game, I’d hand the ball the Jack over Clemens.

  21. Anonymous
    June 27th, 2009 at 12:26 pm #

    Am I saying he’s a good playoff pitcher? Sure…But it wasn’t him that got the Twins and Tigers to the playoffs. He was the third best pitcher on all three pennant winners.

  22. LestersLegends
    June 27th, 2009 at 12:42 pm #

    He was a big part of those pennants. It’s a lot harder beating aces than 2nd and 3rd starters. When the season opened it was Jack who got the ball. When it was playoff time it was Jack who stepped up. Compare Clemens early regular season to his postseason numbers and it’s not close. A big game pitcher is one who pitches better when the stakes are higher. Morris did that. Clemens didn’t until later in his career when he used god knows what.

  23. Anonymous
    June 27th, 2009 at 7:38 pm #

    Tell me this…..I discard W-L record because you’re right, he faced the aces. Yet who cares? They had better ERA’s. How does the pitcher they face determine that? You’re NOT LISTENING to what I’m saying. If I were to hand the ball to one player ever, I’d hand it to the person who had the best chance to get outs. That person is Roger, not Jack. Jack had mediocre results. I really don’t care what you think…Jack Morris is a borderline HOFer, AT BEST. And Morris wasn’t a big part of those pennants. Are you freaking kidding me?

    1984 Tigers whom > Morris: Lou Whitaker, Alan Trammell, Chet Lemon, Kirk Gibson, Dan Petry, Willie Hernandez. If Jack Morris was or was not a Tiger would not have affected the Tigers’ season. It’s a joke if you think he was a huge contributor to that team. They had the MVP & CY and neither were him
    1991 Twins whom > Morris: Kent Hrbek, Chili Davis, Kirby Puckett, Kevin Tapani, Rick Aguilera, Scott Erickson. He was much improved so Minnesota would have faltered anyway. But he was good, not great this season.
    This is a huge joke if you think he contributed to the 1992 Blue Jays: John Olerud, Roberto Alomar, Joe Carter, Dave WInfield, Jimmy Key, Juan Guzman & Tom Henke.
    Two of these three teams would have won their pennants regardless of whether or not Jack Morris was on their team..but Morris helped them in thye WS granted. And I swear if you mention that “It’s a lot harder beating aces than 2nd and 3rd starters” argument again I will flip. I KNOW THAT. But how does who you’re facing affect your ERA+ (Which adjusts for that)

  24. Anonymous
    June 27th, 2009 at 8:14 pm #

    Another virtual clone of Morris & Moyer is Dennis Martinez.

  25. LestersLegends
    June 28th, 2009 at 9:57 pm #

    Without his postseason heroics he is basically those guys, but I put a lot of weight into postseason performances.

  26. Anonymous
    July 7th, 2009 at 2:35 pm #

    I can see that. I’m saying Moyer’s longevity and still keeping a somewhat similar level, not letting his rates drop much, should assist his case. If he bounces back this year and has a good season next season then Jamie could be at 270 Wins, 2500 Strikeouts, excellent control, have the longevity factor, and be in. Until then, he sits at the border with Morris and El Presidente.

  27. erik
    August 12th, 2009 at 8:15 pm #

    comparing jack morris to dave stieb and jaimie moyer is not smart. obviously that idiot knows nothing about baseball. morris had nearly 100 more wins than stieb. moyer was never the strikout pitcher or work horse. moyer wasnt feared like jack morris. moyer is similar to someone like frank tanana or charlie hough but not even that good. mussina was not better than morris. you cant just compare win pct. dennis martinez never won 20 games. plus 4 world series rings. Anonyomous you are an absolute idiot. you know nothing about baseball. jack morris was clutch and had hundreds of more complete games than guys like david wells and petite. when they pitch the greatest game in world series history let me know, but until then you should keep your mouth shut. the next thing you will be sayin is you would rather have A-Rod go to the plate over Kirk Gibson in the bottom of the 9th because A-Rod is the better regular season player. there is something called being clutch and it isnt measured by any statistic

  28. LestersLegends
    August 12th, 2009 at 8:19 pm #

    while i agree with you, that’s a little harsh erik. You don’t have to respect their opinions, but try to respect the person.

  29. Anonymous
    October 1st, 2009 at 5:22 pm #

    I would absolutely rather Alex Rodriguez at the plate than Kirk Gibson. Gibson’s shot is the most overrated homer in MLB history. You realize Alex has many more walk-off homers than Gibson, right? 3-time MVP (147 career OPS+) versus Gibson (1 MVP, which Will Clark deserved). I’ll take A-Rod up at the plate in any situation. Morris pitched a heck of a World Series game 7, true. But every pitcher on that list was a better pitcher. ERA >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wins. WHIP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wins. Pitching Win Shares >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Wins. ERA+, K/BB, Innings, and K/9 ALL >>>>>>>>>>>> Wins. Wins are team dependent. Moyer was a better pitcher. In June, their lines were near identical. Now I have to go Moyer for sure. Stieb, Mussina, Clemens, Dennis Martinez. OPh an Erik, you moron, of course Morris had many more complete games. There were many less relievers in his era. That doesn’t mean the pitchers were better, it just means the coaches were less concerned with safety, hence you have Tommy John (A far, far, far, far superior pitcher to Morris)Surgery. Clearly a guy who pitches 45ish times a year will have more wins and a guy who has less relief will complete more of his games. ERA+ and WHIP so a pitcher’s true values, and I’d say Pitching Win Shares, but I don’t know much about them. Stieb’s teams sucked, so WS argument not fair. Mussina got unlucky. When the day comes when a guy with a 3.90 ERA (unless the league ERA is above 4.80 or something) deserves slam dunk Hall of Fame status, alert me. You, Erik, are an idiot.

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