Cooperstown Chronicles – Mark McGwire

Jan 12, 2008

cooperstown-chronicles.jpg
Photo courtesy of TSN Archives/Icon SMI

Does Mark McGwire deserves to be in the Hall of Fame? Yes, he hit a ton of home runs (583 to be exact), but he’s a career .263 hitter. You know he used steroids. Would he have reached the 500 mark without juicing? I don’t know. While I don’t think he should be the scapegoat for the whole Steroid Era, I really don’t know if I’d punch his ballot. I’m kinda glad I don’t have to make that decision.  Here are the numbers.

mark-mcgwire.jpg
Photo courtesy of Icon SMI

Stats
583 Home Runs – (7th All-time)
1167 Runs
1414 RBI – (60th All-time)
1626 Hits
.263 BA
1317 BBs – (34th All-time

Awards
Rookie of the Year
12 All-Star Games
1 Gold Glove
3 Silver Sluggers
3 Top 5 MVP finishes

Top Ten Finishes
Runs – Twice (’98 & ’99 when he was juicing)
Home Runs – Ten Times (spanned his career)
RBI – Six Times (Never really impressive until ’98 & ’99)
BBs – 6 Times

So the $25,000 question. Do I elect Mark McGwire into the Hall of Fame. My answer….No. He was pretty much a one trick pony. 1626 hits. That’s not enough for me. Sure, he busted out all of those home runs, but how many were steroid aided? Was his career extended because of steroids after all of those injuries? Did he start juicing early in his career like Canseco making him even more of a fraud? Sorry Big Mac fans. If he did more than launch steroid home runs into the stands, I’d probably vote for him. I don’t think the HOF needs a one-trick pony with strong steroid ties.

Past Chronicles
Bert Byleven
Andre Dawson
Dale Murphy

Posted by | Categories: Cooperstown Chronicles, MLB |
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73 Responses so far | Have Your Say!

  1. Chaz
    September 10th, 2008 at 4:49 pm #

    I agree. No McGwire in the HOF. No Conseco. No roid abusers at all. The hall of fame should be reserved for individuals that excelled through talent and hard work. All records and statistics should be completely removed as well.

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  5. Anonymous
    June 6th, 2009 at 9:32 pm #

    That is ridiculous. Mark McGwire deserves to be in the Hall Of Fame 100 %. He revived baseball. He took his 1998 hand and brought baseball back from depths of the strike. He brought it back. We as the same fans who watched and roots for him owe it to him to give him his day in Cooperstown. No Sosa (Numbers don’t cut it — 128 OPS+), but yes to Raffy, Manny, A-Rod, Clemens, Pettite (Maybe), Sheffield and BONDS! Also maybe Belle, possibly Matt Williams too!

  6. LestersLegends
    June 7th, 2009 at 12:30 pm #

    McGwire was a one trick pony. Dave Kingman that with the juice moved into the ranks to be a HOFer.

  7. Anthony
    June 8th, 2009 at 5:22 pm #

    Except he wasn’t a one-trick pony, no offense. His .262 AVG is misleading. He had a near-.400 OBP. Couple that with his Sluggin Average and you’ve got yourself a HOFer…McGwire deserves it more than Andre Dawson (Obviously not counting steroids into the equation)

  8. LestersLegends
    June 8th, 2009 at 5:52 pm #

    Under 1700 Hits. He could mash HRs and get walks, both heavily influenced by the juice.

  9. Anonymous
    June 8th, 2009 at 5:57 pm #

    Yet he was on base over 2700 times. Impressive! Average is misleading. Bottom line. We can agree to disagree that Mark McGwire should be in. On Base Percentage and Slugging Percentage are the most important statistics. Mark has a rate in both combining for 62 % above average. This figure is slightly behind all-time greats Rogers Hornsby, Barry BVonds, Lou Gehrig, Albert Pujolss, Mickey mantle, Ted Williams, and Babe Ruth. They rank at 175, 182, 179, 171, 172, 191, and 207 respectively with Mark right behind. 500 Adjusted Batting Runs! He desrerves to be in. Use a real stat. Hits are subjective and unreliable..

  10. Anonymous
    June 8th, 2009 at 5:58 pm #

    Also, then blame his exclusiopn on juice. Based on numbers, Mark is a no-doubt HOFer…not taking steropids (Which I don’t care about) into account..

  11. LestersLegends
    June 8th, 2009 at 6:50 pm #

    The numbers are there for power and getting on base. His OPS is way out of whack because of using steroids and the fear his steroid use caused. Sosa, Palmeiro, Bonds, etc. all hit for average, power, scored a ton of runs, had more RBIs. Once they got in I’d consider letting Mac in. I do agree he and Sosa helped save baseball, but it’s baseball. We would have come back.

  12. Anonymous
    June 8th, 2009 at 7:15 pm #

    Sosa is no where near as deserving. .273 Average to .262 Average? Big deal….McGwire walked. A LOT. He should get in a mile and three fifths (Random number) before Slamming Sammy should. Heck, I don’t think Sosa’s numbers warrant it. And you’re blaming McGwire for being on bad teams (RBI & Runs are team dependent) beeeeeecaaaause? I don’t care how many runs Sosa scores. On Base Percentage and Slugging Average are the ONLY things a player can control. Therefore, McGwire deserves it more than Sosa and Palmeiro. Bonds > McGwire though…McGwire’s numbers are better than Sosa and Raffy’s, bottom line!
    Mark McGwire:
    .263/.394/.588 over 7660 Plate Appearances, 162 OPS+, and 589.2 Batting Runs. He was a better independent hitter.
    Sammy Sosa:
    .273/.344/.534 over 9896 Plate Appearances, 128 OPS+, and 330.6 Batting Runs. He had a better team. So, in summation…. Sosa batted ten points higher (Is that batting for batting average?). His OBP (Keep in mind he also took steroids) was 50 POINTS lower. His SLG Pct was FIFTY POINTS LOWER. Sosa reached base 3400 times in 9896 PA. McGwire got on base 2943 times in 7660 PA. See a comparison cuz I don’t. Sosa had 4704 Total Bases in over 2000 more Plate Appearances. McGwire had 3639 TB in 2136 less PA. Edge, Mark. McGwire had 1626 Hits, true. However, McGwire got on base more and hit for more power than Sosa. McGwire >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sosa. If Sosa gets in an Mark doesn’t, it will be a MAJOR travesty. See my point now statistically? Mark’s stats blow Sammy’s out of the water! ANd did you know McGwire WON A GOLD GLOVE? Apparently he was better. He should be in. He saved the sport.

  13. LestersLegends
    June 8th, 2009 at 7:56 pm #

    I don’t know. McGwire played on some very good teams in Oakland. He was a dominant force, I’ll give you that. The whole era was tainted and the Bonds, Sosas, McGwires, Mannys, Arods were the best of the best. Unless you keep out the whole era, you have to at some point let these guys in. To me first Bonds and Clemens have to get in. Then you can deal with the rest. Oh, and I’d put in Pete Rose before the steroid cheats.

  14. Anonymous
    June 8th, 2009 at 8:30 pm #

    I’d put Rose in too. It’s kind oif a disgrace he isn’t. I’d put Shoeless Joe and al;so remove Buck Weaver and Eddie Cicotte’s names from the ineligible list. Then I’d but Bonds, Clemens, Manny, Arod, McGwire, Palmeiro, Juan Gone, Pettite (maybe), K-Brown, I-Rod, Sosa (Maybe), and maybe Sheffield and Giambi.

  15. LestersLegends
    June 8th, 2009 at 8:59 pm #

    Not sure about Juan Gone, Pettitte, and Kevin Brown. Probably not Sheff or Giambi either. Cheating aside I’m not sure about sustained greatness with them>

  16. Anonymous
    June 9th, 2009 at 3:45 pm #

    Kevin Brown’s statistics are surprising very good. Same with Sheffield. Sheffield deserves it more than Sosa, that’s for sure. The others are certainly borderline. Giambi had a HOF peak but couldn’t sustain it. I like a wide hall so I may induct Gonzalez off the basis of a 134 OPS+, Pettite off 90 games over .500, Brown off a 127 ERA+, lower WHIP than Glavine, higher K/9 and K/BB than Tom and the same Winning Percentage. Nobody’s questioning Glavine, are they? Sheffield had a fantastic, probably underrated, career and Giambi is sorta the border for first basemen. He could go either way. In or out. Probably out.

  17. LestersLegends
    June 9th, 2009 at 4:13 pm #

    K. Brown – one 20-win season & never a cy young; glavine – five & two. I know you discount W’s, but they and Cy Young Awards speak to excellence. Sheff is close, but I’m not sure. His numbers are close, but he doesn’t pass the name test where you see his name and say Oh yeah, he’s in. Giambi had a six-year stretch of excellence, but hasn’t been much in the other years. Pettitte is close, but he had just two 20 win seasons, and he pitched for the Yankees in their dynasy years. His postseason excellence may be what ultimately gets him in. That, and playing in NY. Juan Gone had seven excellent seasons, but it’s odd he made just three AS games. That says something. I know the starters are picked by the fans, but why wasn’t he selected as a reserve. I still remember the play where he was arguing the scoring decision. That stuck with me. He was more concerned about his stats than anything.

  18. LestersLegends
    June 9th, 2009 at 4:40 pm #

    Brown played on bad bad bad teams. That’s why he didn’t have wins and arguably he deserved the 1998 Cy Young. His non win numbers were miles better than the winner. Guess who the winner was….Tom Glavine…Then they’d be even at 1 apiece. Sheffield, to me, actually HAS that standout name. Giambi’s excellence could carry him in because, I have done an analysis of his six year peak and it is ultimately comparable to Jimmie Foxx and Lou Gehrig’s peak. Ultimately, without steroids that could be enough to carry him in. Agreed with Andy. And Juan Gonzalez had the unfortunateness that his best several season collided with Joe Torre running the reserve list, and he tended to pick Yankee reserves, plus his Yankees regularly faced the Rangers (I believe twice) in the playoffs so maybe he disliked Juan. Juan had 100-RBI before the All * Break. That’s ridiculous. His peak was a monster. 2 MVPs despite 3 All-Star games, plus All-Star games, despite being a popularity contest, are also a designation of HALF year performances. If based on a full year, he may have made 5-7 of them. OThey’re mostly a bunch of borderliners, aside SHeffield IMO and Brown.
    Here, for analysis:
    Kevin Brown 1998, 18-7, 2.38 ERA, 257 K, 49 BB, 5.24 K/BB, 164 ERA+, 1.066 WHIP, over 257 IP
    Tom Glavine 1998, 20-6, 2.47 ERA, 157 K, 74 BB, 2.12 K/BB, 168 ERA+, 1.203 WHIP, over 229.1 IP

    Guess who won the Cy Young? Yep Glavine did. If Brown won his rightful CY they’d be even at 1 apiece. Brown went 211-144 for the Rangers, Orioles, Marlins, Padres, Dodgers (Albeit, a solid team), and Yankees (Who weren’t as dominant as the late 1990s teams when he was with them) as opposed to 305-203 Glavine for the 14-time Division Champion Braves and the Mets…….They’re close. Glavine benefited from Atlanta. I’d rather put both in the HOF and not get into a “Who’s Better” arguement. And for reference.
    Here’s a definition of ERA+:
    ERA+ is a percentage metric used to compare players. 100 is league average. Anything above that means the player was efficient at preventing runs above league average. How you find it is you divide the league average ERA by the players ERA. However, there is more. The league average ERA, obviously is the league average for EVERYBODY. But what statisticians do is they use AIR formulas to assign a value to every ballpark. For example, Petco Park has about a .79ish value for AIR. Colorado has a larger ERA. They then multiply the Lg ERA by the park factor and get a park adjusted LgERA. They then divide that by the player’s ERA to determine how much better than his peers the player was. Examples:
    Pedro Martinez 2000:
    His ERA was 1.74
    With park factors multiplied in, the LgERA was 5.06. The division makes Pedro’s ERA+ 291, which happens to be the sole best all time for a single season.
    Johan Santana 2008:
    Johan’s ERA was 2.53
    The LgERA was 4.1998. The division makes Johan’s ERA+ 166, the second best in MLB, behind Cliff Lee. It was slightly above Lincecum. Using that, Maine and Cain have been very close the past few seasons. ERA+ can be found at Baseball Reference.com

    And No I didn’t just write the ERA+ description, I had it ;)

  19. Anonymous
    June 9th, 2009 at 4:42 pm #

    Idk why that published as Lester Legends

  20. LestersLegends
    June 9th, 2009 at 6:36 pm #

    ERA+ is why to me Pedro is the best Pitcher in baseball history. To do what
    he did in this era is crazy.

  21. Anonymous
    June 9th, 2009 at 8:46 pm #

    I COMPLETELY agree although I don’t think he is #1. He has a STRONG case for top 10 though. My top 11 are Walter J, Roger, Gibson, Lefty Grove, Grover Alexander, Greg M, Randy J, Pedro, Seaver, Carlton, and Spahn. Then you have a mishmosh of Mussina, Glavine and Brown with Eddie Plank, Marichal behind them and Schilling close as well. And also, if you love ERA+, here:
    Brown: 127 ERA+ over 3256.1 IP. He had eight seasons w/ 130 or higher. Of those, he had 150 or higher six times including 200 once.
    Glavine: 118 ERA+ over 4413.1 IP. He had eight seasons with 130 or higher. Of those, however, he topped 150 twice, topping off at 168. Brown had THREE years ABOVE 168. See where I’m coming from, at the very least? Brown is QUITE underrated.
    Glavine:

  22. LestersLegends
    June 9th, 2009 at 9:05 pm #

    Yeah, I hear you. That difference isn’t that major considering Glavine had an extra 1200 Innings. Glavine wasn’t the same P at the end of his career. He led the league in W’s five times though and was able to meet the 300 mark, which unlike 500 HRs still means something.

  23. Anonymous
    June 10th, 2009 at 4:37 pm #

    I understand that, but what about the 150 K difference in over 1200 Ip? Brown had a better peak, also, as I showed by ERA+. Considering he is, at least, comparable to Glavine, have I at least maybe convinced you a little that Brown is possibly deserving of Cooperstown?

  24. LestersLegends
    June 10th, 2009 at 4:42 pm #

    Yeah, I’m a little closer to saying he’s worthy. Though K’s aren’t everything.

  25. Anonymous
    June 10th, 2009 at 4:46 pm #

    Strikeouts are the only form of an out that show complete dominance of a pitcher. All other outs depend on a defense. I don’t think K’s are everything but when your career control stat (K/BB is an excellent stat) is superb, it makes the K’s valuable because they allow the player to escape jams..not walking and striking out is a great combo..

  26. LestersLegends
    June 10th, 2009 at 5:48 pm #

    To me it doesn’t matter how you get them out just as long as you get them out.

  27. Anonymous
    June 10th, 2009 at 5:49 pm #

    Agreed. That’s why I like WHIP and Brown’s is low. Heck, if Jack Morris gets in, Brown deserves it. I think Brown is inside the top 40 SP all-time. How about a different HoF Candidate, that I may suggest for you to profile: Jim Edmonds

  28. LestersLegends
    June 10th, 2009 at 5:54 pm #

    First though it no for Edmonds. I’ll try to profile him and Kevin Brown fairly soon.

  29. Anonymous
    June 10th, 2009 at 6:04 pm #

    My first thought is no for Edmonds also. I would actually say borderline after seeing he probably sits 8-11th best CFer ever. His numbers warrant major consideration and his stand as a top CF puts him in in my book..

  30. Anonymous
    June 10th, 2009 at 6:28 pm #

    And few others possible for you to profile include Larry Walker (Whom I think should go), Andres Galaragga, Todd Helton, Tony Fernandez and one of my favorites, Barry Larkin.

  31. LestersLegends
    June 10th, 2009 at 8:08 pm #

    I’ve done Larkin and I feel his should be a HOFer. He is basically Cal Ripken without the streak. No for Tony. No for Galaragga. Maybe Walker and I think Helton is well on his way. Those Colorado guys are iffy though.

  32. Anonymous
    June 10th, 2009 at 8:22 pm #

    I think Larkin, Helton, Edmonds and Walker make it from the ones I listed. Helton and Walker had monster peaks, Larkin due to position and Edmonds due to defense and position

  33. LestersLegends
    June 10th, 2009 at 9:23 pm #

    Hard to say how this era will be judged.

  34. Anonymous
    June 11th, 2009 at 3:33 pm #

    I think all of the following will garner at least 5 % or come with in a vote or two:
    C:
    Mike Piazza
    Ivan Rodriguez
    1B:
    Albert Pujols
    Lance Berkman
    Frank Thomas
    Jim Thome
    Mark McGwire
    Rafael Palmeiro
    Carlos Delgado
    Jason Giambi
    Todd Helton

    DH:
    Edgar Martinez
    David Ortiz

    2B:
    Jeff Kent
    Roberto Alomar
    Craig Biggio

    SS:
    Derek Jeter
    Alex Rodrgiuez
    Barry Larkin
    Miguel Tejada
    Omar Vizquel
    Nomar Garciaparra

    3B:
    Chipper Jones
    Scot Rolen

    OF:
    Barry Bonds
    Ken Griffey Jr.
    Sammy Sosa
    Manny Ramirez
    Gary Sheffield
    Vladimir Guerrero
    Andruw Jones
    Larry Walker
    Brian Giles
    Jim Edmonds
    Carlos Beltran
    Johnny Damon
    Juan & Luis Gonzalez
    Albert Belle

    SP:
    Roger Clemens
    Greg Maddux
    Tom Glavine
    Randy Johnson
    Pedro Martinez
    Curt Schilling
    Mike Mussina
    Kevin Brown
    Jamie Moyer
    David Wells
    Kenny Rogers

    RP:
    Mariano Rivera
    Trevor Hoffman
    Billy Wagner
    Troy Percival

    As well was young kids on their ways:
    Joe Mauer
    Brian McCann
    Matt Wieters
    Mark Teixeira
    Miguel Cabrera
    Adrian Gonzalez
    Ryan Howard
    Prince Fielder
    Chase Utley
    Dustin Pedroia
    Ian Kinsler
    Brandon Phillips
    Hanley Ramirez
    Jimmy Rollins
    Jose Reyes
    David Wright
    Ryan Zimmerman
    Aramis Ramirez
    Evan Longoria
    Matt Holliday
    Jason Bay
    Ryan Braun
    Ichiro
    Alex Rios
    Ryan Ludwick
    Nick Markakis
    Matt Kemp
    Justin Upton
    BJ Upton
    Jay Bruce
    Carlos Quentin
    Grady Sizemore
    Johan Santana
    Roy Halladay
    Roy Oswalt
    Josh Beckett
    Cole Hamels
    CC Sabathia
    Jake Peavy

    As well as players for whom a late career push can get them there…
    Jorge Posada
    Jason Kendall
    Jason Varitek
    Derrek Lee
    Paul Konerko
    Luis Castillo
    Troy Glaus
    Eric Chavez
    Adrian Beltre
    Mike Cameron
    Torii Hunter
    Vernon Wells
    JD Drew
    Bobby Abreu
    Alfonzo Soriano
    Josh Hamilton
    Moises Alou
    Raul Ibanez
    Adam Dunn
    Carlos Lee
    Matt Stairs
    Jermaine Dye
    Juan Pierre
    Aaron Rowand
    Randy Winn
    Tim Wakefield

  35. LestersLegends
    June 11th, 2009 at 10:56 pm #

    Agree mostly. Some of those bottom gus like Rowand, Winn, Stairs I don’t agree with, but I hear ya. Lot of players. Don’t forget the often overlooked Justin Morneau with the young guys.

  36. Anonymous
    June 12th, 2009 at 11:36 am #

    I submitted it than forgot Justin Morneau and Carlos Pena. Pena has been amazing since 2007. Don’t overlook him. I think Winn is vastly underrated. Rowand is actually vastly OVERRATED but I included him anyway. STairs may have been close actually if he got playing time. If he got broguht up earlier he’d be close to borderline. Now he needs a late career Bonds-esque peak to get within a mile of the border. Santana actually has a strong case at this point. All his 146 ERA+ needs is innings and he has it locked up.

  37. LestersLegends
    June 12th, 2009 at 12:02 pm #

    Totally agree. Santana is unreal. One of the best second half pitchers ever.

  38. Anonymous
    June 12th, 2009 at 12:03 pm #

    He will make the HOF. He already has 1500+ IP and unbelievbable rates. 2500+ IP will get him in in a Pedro/Koufax mold.

  39. LestersLegends
    June 12th, 2009 at 12:07 pm #

    Yeah. He has two Cy Youngs, and in my opinion could easily won the year Bartolo won and last year. Lincecum was great, but what Pedro did down the stretch for a team in playoff contention trumped him. His gem on three days rest sealed it for me.

  40. Anonymous
    June 12th, 2009 at 2:48 pm #

    Nah, Timmy deserved last year’s Cy Young (This coming from a Met fan). Lincecum had an unreal year. You can’t blame him for being on the Giants. The voters gave it to the right guy. Johan should have been second above Webb, however. Lincecum had a better ERA+, way way way more strikeouts, more win shares, lower WHIP, and similar innings (six less). Tim deserved it. Johan could be on his way to a third this year and is already IMO the tenth best pitcher since 1990. My top ten pitchers since nineteen ninety in no order are
    Maddux
    Clemens
    Smoltz
    Glavine
    Johnson
    Martinez
    Schilling
    Mussina
    Brown and
    Santana
    with Mariano’s IP hurting his “>Johan” argument although I wouldn’t mind Mo at ten.

  41. LestersLegends
    June 12th, 2009 at 2:51 pm #

    I’m a Johan guy so I am biased.

  42. Anonymous
    June 12th, 2009 at 2:54 pm #

    I like Johan a lot and feel there is no plausible reason aside wions that Webb finished second. Pitcher’s better than Webb last year include Johan, Tim, Haren, Harden, Hamels, and CC. In the AL there is Lester, Lee, Halladay, and Ervin Santana. Webb’s peripherals were not “2nd in the Cy Young” material.

  43. LestersLegends
    June 12th, 2009 at 2:56 pm #

    Agree, and Webb wasn’t a great second half pitcher last year, which has been true historically of him.

  44. Anonymous
    June 12th, 2009 at 3:17 pm #

    I’ve looked up ERA+ leaders for 2008
    Webb was sixth in ERA+ amongst pitchers in 2008, behind Volquez, Lincecum, Santana, Hamels and Dempster. None were ridiculously behind in innings so it’s fair to say All five>Webb. Once you add in Lester, Halladay, Lee and Dice-K for the Al Webb falls to tenth in MLB. He was the tenth best pitcher and heeee finished 2nd in the Nl? Give me a break!

  45. LestersLegends
    June 12th, 2009 at 6:46 pm #

    that is crazy.

  46. Anonymous
    June 12th, 2009 at 10:24 pm #

    On the Edmonds thing..
    My top CFers all time
    1. Mays
    2. Cobb
    3. Mantle
    4. Speaker
    5. DiMaggio
    6. Charleston
    7. Griffey Jr.
    8. Snider
    9. Edmonds
    10. Puckett
    11. Averill
    12. Ashburn
    13. Combes
    14. Hamilton
    15. B. Williams

  47. LestersLegends
    June 13th, 2009 at 9:59 am #

    Nice list, but I would put puckett, ashburn, hamilton above edmonds for sure. I’d even put bernie above him because of his postseason excellence. I’d put joe d above speaker. Hard to compare Charleston unfortunately.

  48. Anonymous
    June 13th, 2009 at 12:26 pm #

    Speaker is better than Joe DiMaggio, unless you give considerable war cedit to DiMaggio, which is plausible. Puckett is overrated. Edmonds was better, by a good portion. Ashburn is well below, as well. Hamilton might be above Edmonds. If anything, Adjust 14 to 8/9 and then put Edmonds is 8/9. Puckett’s career numbers pale to Edmonds. Edmonds could be a little lower. But even if you move him to eleven or twelve. The twelfth best CFer in the history of baseball deserves to be enshrined IMO. Top 10-15 at every position should go.

  49. Anonymous
    June 13th, 2009 at 12:26 pm #

    Speaker is better than Joe DiMaggio, unless you give considerable war cedit to DiMaggio, which is plausible. Puckett is overrated. Edmonds was better, by a good portion. Ashburn is well below, as well. Hamilton might be above Edmonds. If anything, Adjust 14 to 8/9 and then put Edmonds is 8/9. Puckett’s career numbers pale to Edmonds. Edmonds could be a little lower. But even if you move him to eleven or twelve. The twelfth best CFer in the history of baseball deserves to be enshrined IMO. Top 10-15 at every position should go. Fred Lynn too

  50. Anonymous
    June 13th, 2009 at 12:28 pm #

    Darn. I put it twice. Also, what about Vern Stephens? Have you profiled him?
    He should go maybe too.

  51. LestersLegends
    June 13th, 2009 at 12:53 pm #

    I think I have profiled him. I do give war credit to Joe D, which is why I elevate him. I don’t want to get in the trouble that the ibanez guy got into, but edmonds wasn’t a top tier CF until he played with Big Mac. Could that have meant something? Maybe.

  52. Anonymous
    June 13th, 2009 at 1:44 pm #

    Haha, yeah that Ibanez guy got into a ton of trouble. But I beg to differ, quietly.
    Year Tm G PA AB R H 2B 3B HR RBI SB CS BB SO BA OBP SLG OPS OPS+ TB GDP HBP SH SF IBB
    1993-1999 CAL,ANA 709 2951 2644 464 768 161 12 121 408 26 24 274 558 .290 .359 .498 .856 119 1316 49 15 3 15 22
    Those are Edmonds numbers in Anaheim, which include 1993 and 1994 in which he didn’t play. Those are fine numbers, and his best years came AFTER Mac left. He would have been a close-to-what-he-was player had he stayed in Anaheim considering he had 4 120+ ERA+ seasons early on. His peak occurred in St. Louis but he wasn’t a load of crap in Anaheim, he was still All-Star calibre. I think he would have still been a top 15 CF had he not switched but he did, so that does not matter. Edmonds was one of the three of four best CF (Along with Griffey and Bernie) in Anaheim and was among the three or four or possibly best his career with the Cards. And for reference, he shared around a year and a half with McGwire. Also, do you think Raul can sustain this excellence and possibly have a major revival of his career?
    And, why don’t you think STephens deserves to be in? Edmonds was a better player than Sammy Sosa btw, so if you think non-steroids Sosa deserves, you have to say Edmonds deserves it.

  53. Anonymous
    June 13th, 2009 at 1:58 pm #

    Here are Edmonds vs. Puckett vs. Hamilton vs. Ashburn vs. Williams vs. Averill
    Top Five Years with 500 PA by OPS+
    Edmonds
    170
    160
    158
    149
    146

    Puckett
    152
    141
    138
    132
    131

    Hamilton
    162
    158
    154
    152
    152

    Ashburn
    142
    136
    122
    121
    117

    Williams
    160
    149
    147
    141
    140

    Averill
    157
    151
    149
    142
    138

    Okay, so by peak,
    Year 1- Edmonds
    Year 2- Edmonds
    Year 3- Edmonds
    Year 4- Hamilton
    Year 5- Hamilton

    So, the only guy who compares to Edmonds offensively is Hamilton.
    Then, you factor in 8 Gold Gloves aaaaand
    You’ve got Edmonds!
    Plus he has a World Championship to boot, if you care about that type of thing. Edmonds also has a better career OPS+ than everyone of those aside Hamilton, but played longer than Billy.

  54. LestersLegends
    June 13th, 2009 at 5:43 pm #

    I guess I didn’t realize he had 8 ggs. then yeah, he prob belongs.

    Sosa was a steroids guy. That’s why he has the numbers to get in. When he came in he was nearly as big as Lance Johnstone.

  55. LestersLegends
    June 13th, 2009 at 5:43 pm #

    don’t see why Vern Stephens is being considered. He lacks great career numbers and was rarely a league leader in any category. He had a three-year stretch when he first joined Boston where he averaged 117 Runs, 33 HRs, and 147 RBI. That was a great run, but the rest of career didn’t quite stack up. He gets extra credit for his numbers as a Shortstop, but in the end he comes up just short in my book.

  56. Anonymous
    June 13th, 2009 at 6:39 pm #

    Sosa isn’t even close to Edmonds. Edmonds is better offensively and far better overall than Sosa. Sosa is a borderline HOFer, with steroids. HOmers are not everything, and Sosa’s 128 OPS+ pales as an outfielder with poor fielding capabilities.

    1. You need to consider all things. Stephens had a long enough career (7300 PA isn’t long enough?). His 119 OPS+ as a SS is better than that of Yount, Ripken, Larkin and close to Jeter

    To me, a shortstop needs to have five seasons with a 125 OPS+ or four above and another at 124 or 123 or so to have a HOF SS Peak. Here are my qualifications if they accompany that peak:
    11000+ PA:::::::::110 OPS+
    10000+ PA:::::::::115 OPS+
    9000+ PA:::::::::117 OPS+
    8000+ PA:::::::::120 OPS+
    7000+ PA:::::::::130 OPS+
    6000+ PA:::::::::135 OPS+
    5000+ PA:::::::::145 OPS+
    4000+ PA:::::::::165 OPS+
    I won’t let anybody in w/ less than 4000 PA
    Stephens comes up close in career length. Accompany that with an incredible peak and he gets my vote.
    THAT is why he gets considerable consideration. You let DAVE CONCEPCION in but not a much much much much more deserving Vern Stephens in…..That’s blasphemy. I don’t have a huge issue with Dave in….But Vern needs to go in first…

  57. LestersLegends
    June 14th, 2009 at 1:48 am #

    Three of Stephens solid years were while folks were gone at the war. He had three monster seasons and a few solid years.

  58. Anonymous
    June 14th, 2009 at 2:36 pm #

    ZSo you’repenalizing him for being at war? Are you going to penalize the 1915-1920 people like Cobb, Speaker etc.
    OPS+ adjusts for era which means his numbers were much better compared to hitters were doing against the same competition so the WWII factor doesn’t matter. People were still there. Not everybody went to war, and plus some of his better years were AFTER war. He should be in. Here are the only shortstops better than Stephens
    Wagner
    Rodriguez
    Ripken
    Vaughan
    Larkin
    Appling
    Jeter

    He is arguably as good or better than every other shortstop in baseball history. Nobody has a higher OPS+ with majority of games as a ss other than those mentionjed above. Trammell is close. If Trammell deserves it, as you have said, then there is NO WAY Vern doesn’t. If Concepcion deserves it then STEPHENS deserves it. VERN DESERVES TO GO! He had one of the best SS peaks and didn’t have a precipitous decline.

  59. LestersLegends
    June 14th, 2009 at 2:50 pm #

    He did have an amazing peak, the rest don’t scream HOF to me.

  60. Anonymous
    June 14th, 2009 at 3:02 pm #

    To me they scream HOF far more than majority of the HOF SS’s……and BY FAR.

  61. LestersLegends
    June 16th, 2009 at 1:01 pm #

    My Edmonds chronicle.
    http://lesterslegends.com/?p=12391

  62. Anonymous
    June 22nd, 2009 at 4:09 pm #

    I jsut read it. Good article..

  63. LestersLegends
    June 22nd, 2009 at 6:54 pm #

    Thanks.

  64. Anonymous
    June 24th, 2009 at 9:49 am #

    No problem. I am profiling Albert Belle for my blog right now actually..

  65. LestersLegends
    June 24th, 2009 at 9:53 am #

    Do share the link. I’d love to take a look at it.

  66. Anonymous
    June 24th, 2009 at 9:56 am #

    what I do there is pretty much blog about everybody who has appeared on the HOF Ballot, that way I miss nobody. I currently have done all 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007 first time ballotees and have just Belle and Orel Hershiser left on 2006.

  67. Anonymous
    June 24th, 2009 at 11:48 am #

    metsfanx2.mlblogs.com

  68. danny
    June 29th, 2009 at 2:27 pm #

    i appreciate everyones comments, but any list of top ten all time pitchers that does not include sandy koufax is irrelavent. i have wathched thousands of games pitched in my almost sixty years and never saw anyone as dominant for a five year period. only injury stopped that from becoming a much longer period of time.

  69. LestersLegends
    June 29th, 2009 at 2:30 pm #

    The list was from 1990 on so Koufax wasn’t eligible.

  70. Anonymous
    June 29th, 2009 at 8:38 pm #

    was refering to list in comment #21

  71. LestersLegends
    June 29th, 2009 at 8:47 pm #

    my bad.

  72. Anonymous
    August 15th, 2009 at 3:08 pm #

    only injury stopped a lot of people. he’s top 15 i’d say but i can’t put him top ten all time.

  73. Anonymous
    August 15th, 2009 at 3:13 pm #

    Lester, he’s a group of people I don’t know if you’ve profiled yet but if you haven’t you can

    Carlos Beltran
    Will Clark
    Gary Sheffield
    Larry Walker
    Carlos Delgado
    Todd Helton
    Jason Giambi
    Kevin Brown
    Johan
    Halladay
    Oswalt
    Juan Gonzalez
    Fred McGriff
    Brian Giles
    Lance Berkman
    Jeff Bagwell
    Frank Thomas
    Jim Thome

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