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Eric Stashin the Rotoprofessor and I are back to debate Dale Murphy’s Hall of Fame worthiness.

The Numbers
2180 Games
7960 At Bats
.265 Batting Average
.346 On-base %
.469 Slugging %
1197 Runs
2111 Hits
350 Doubles
39 Triples
398 HRs
1266 RBI
986 Walks
161 SBs

The Awards
1982 MVP
1983 MVP
1985 Lou Gehrig Memorial Award
1988 Roberto Clemente Award
Five Gold Gloves (1982-86)
Four Silver Sluggers (1982-1985)
Seven All-Star Appearances
Received MVP votes in seven seasons

Top Ten Finishes
Batting Average – Twice
On-base % – Five times
Slugging % – Six times (Led league in 1983 & 1984)
OPS – Six times (Led league in 1983)
Games – Seven times (Led league in ’82, ’83, ’84 & ’85)
At Bats – Four times
Runs – Six times (Led league in 1985)
Hits – Three times
Total Bases – Seven times
Doubles – Four times
Triples – Once
HRs – Nine times (Led league in 1984 & 1985)
RBI – Six times (Led league in 1982 & 1983)
Walks – Seven Times (Led league in 1985)
Extra Base Hits – Eight times (Led league in 1984)
Hit by Pitch – Once
Intentional Walks – Five times (Led league in 1987)

Hall of Fame Yardsticks
Black Ink: Batting – 31 (55) (Average HOFer ≈ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting – 147 (91) (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting – 34.4 (200) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting – 116.0 (123) (Likely HOFer > 100)

References
Baseball-Reference.com

Lester’s Take
Right out of the gate I’m going to use the yardsticks to support my claim.  Three of the four yardsticks support the inclusion of Dale Murphy into the Hall of Fame.  He’s a two-time MVP that was excellent in the field.  He was easily one of the best players in the league for a six-year stretch (1982-1987) where he averaged 36.3 HRs, 110 Runs, 104.8 RBIs, and 17.5 SBs while winning two MVP, six Gold Gloves, and four Silver Sluggers.  The rest of his career wasn’t brilliant, but was good enough with his long stretch of greatness to be a Hall of Famer.  The knock on him is his Batting Average and his Strikeouts.  Those numbers are less than desirable, but he got the job done.  He had the misfortune of playing on some pretty bad Brave teams.  In the end I think Murph did just enough to get in.

Rotoprofessor’s Take
From 1982-1987 he was one of the best sluggers in the game, hitting 218 HR and 629 RBI en route to winning a pair of MVP awards. Those are spectacular numbers but at just 31 years old, when he should have still been capable of putting up big seasons, he all but disappeared. In 1988 he hit 24 HR with a .226 average. In 1989 he hit 20 HR with a .228 average. After that he stuck around for parts of 5 more seasons, hitting a total of just 44 HR.

Those were 6 years were fantastic, but not enough to convince me that we should honor his entire career. He was good prior to the outburst, and terrible after it. For me to consider him for the Hall, he would have to really have had a blow away stretch. He just didn’t provide that, being overshadowed by superstars like Mike Schmidt, Tony Gwynn and Dave Winfield. He was a very good hitter, but not the preeminent slugger of the period. Given the mediocrity of the rest of his career, that causes him to fall short in my eyes.

Previous Debates
Mark McGwire (Hall of Fame)
Tim Raines (Hall of Fame)
Bernie Williams (Hall of Fame)
Ryan Dempster (2009 Season)
Jack Morris (Hall of Fame)

Eric Stashin the Rotoprofessor and I are back to debate Jack Morris’ Hall of Fame worthiness.

The Numbers
254 Wins (40th All-time)
3.90 ERA
2478 Strikeouts (31st All-time)
3824 Innings (49th All-time)
527 starts (35th All-time)
175 Complete Games
28 Shutouts

The Awards
World Series MVP
5 All-Star Appearances
Received MVP votes in 5 seasons
Recieved Cy Young votes in 7 seasons

Top Ten Finishes
Wins – 12 Times (Led league in ‘81 & ‘92)
ERA – 5 Times
Strikeouts – 8 Times (Led league ‘83)
Innings – 9 Times (Led league in ‘83)
Starts – 11 Times (Led league in ‘90 & ‘91)
Complete Games – 10 Times (Led league in ‘90)
Shutouts – 8 Times (Led league in ‘86)
Winning Percentage – 5 Times

Hall of Fame Yardsticks
Black Ink: Pitching – 20 (89) (Average HOFer ≈ 40)
Gray Ink: Pitching – 193 (47) (Average HOFer ≈ 185)
HOF Standards: Pitching – 39.0 (73) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Pitching – 122.5 (64) (Likely HOFer > 100)

Lester’s Take
1991.  Game 7.  Minnesota Twins vs. Atlanta Braves.  Jack Morris vs. John Smoltz.  In perhaps the best postseason performace of the modern era, Jack Morris throws ten innings of shutout ball to deliver a World Series to Minnesota in 1-0 ballgame.  That’s the stuff that legends are made of.  That’s just one reason he belongs in the Hall of Fame.  Jack Morris won World Series titles with three different teams (Detroit in ‘84, Minnesota in ‘91, and Toronto in ‘92) compiling a World Series record of 3-0 with a 2.96 ERA in seven games.  He went 6-1 in 13 career playoff starts.  Morris isn’t limited to that brilliant World Series performance, those seven World Series games, or those 13 playoff games.  His overall numbers speak to his worthiness as well.

Morris had more wins in the 80’s (162) than any other pitcher.  Dave Steib is the next closest with 140.  Every pitcher that has led a decade in Wins is in the Hall of Fame.  He was a model of consistency winning at least 15 games in 12 of the 14 seasons in which he had at least 25 starts.  His dominance is equaled by his durability.  He made over 500 consecutive starts without missing a turn in the rotation.  He also owns a no-hitter (1984 vs. the White Sox).

Gone are the days of 300 wins careers.  With five-man rotations, you just don’t get enough starts to reach the plateau.  That benchmark may need to be adjusted.  He was an elite pitcher for  a decade with a history of big games in the postseason and unmatched durability.  That says Hall of Famer in my book.    

Rotoprofessor’s Take
Jack Morris was a tremendous big game pitcher, maybe the best of his generation.  The 10-inning shutout performance against the Braves will go down in history as one of the greatest ever.  He should be honored for it.  He absolutely should be.  Baseball historians should mention the performance when they release Top 10 games pitched lists.  Fans should remember with awe the stuff that Morris brought to the table that day.  It was that good.  It was great.
 
However, that one game, and the other 12 he threw in the postseason, does not make an entire career.  Yes, the 254 Wins are a nice number, but he is a pitcher who posted a career ERA of 3.90 and not once was under 3.  In fact, in 8 of his seasons his ERA was over 4.  Does that sound like a pitcher who deserves to be enshrined with some of the best?
 
Three 20 Win seasons is nice, but one of them came with a 4.04 ERA, certainly not something that is all that impressive.  Not once did he win the Cy Young Award, being named the best pitcher in his league.  Finishing in the Top 10 is nice, and shows that you are a very good pitcher, but to be remembered as one of the best you need to prove it, and not just in a few select moments. 
 
Honor the great moments that Morris provided over his career, he deserves that.  Honor him as a good pitcher, a very good pitcher even.  Do not honor him as one of the best, because he wasn’t, and for that reason I would not vote him into the Hall of Fame.

Previous Debates
Mark McGwire (Hall of Fame)
Tim Raines (Hall of Fame)
Bernie Williams (Hall of Fame)
Ryan Dempster (2009 Season)

Eric Stashin the Rotoprofessor and I have decided to team up and debate Bernie Williams’ Hall of Fame worthiness.

Numbers
2076 Games
7869 At Bats
.297 Batting Average
1366 Runs
2336 Hits
449 Doubles
55 Triples
287 Home Runs
1257 RBI
1069 Walks (84th All-time)
147 Stolen Bases

Eight .300 Seasons
Eight 100+ Run Seasons
Six 30+ Double Seasons
One 30+ HR Season
Five 100+ RBI Seasons

Playoffs: 121 Games, 128 hits in 465 at bats (.275), 83 Runs, 29 Doubles, 22 HR, 80 RBI, 71 Walks, 8 Steals, 4 World Series Ring

Awards
1996 ALCS MVP
4 Gold Gloves
2002 Silver Slugger
5 All-Star Game Appearances
MVP Votes in 6 Seasons

Top Ten Finishes
Batting Average – Four Times (Batting Crown in 1998)
On-Base % – Five Times
Slugging % – Twice
OPS – Four Times
Games – Twice
At-Bats – Once
Runs – Three Times
Hits - Three Times
Doubles – Twice
Triples – Four Times
RBI – Once
Walks – Three Times
Intentional Walks – Four Times (Led League in 1999)

Hall of Fame Yardsticks
Black Ink: Batting – 4 (405) (Average HOFer ≈ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting – 61 (402) (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting – 48.3 (82) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting – 133.0 (100) (Likely HOFer > 100)

Lester’s Take
If I were just considering his regular season accomplishments I would have to shut down Bernie immediately. He was above average with eight years of .300 or better.  He also scored 100 or more Runs eight times and knocked in 100 or more five times.  He was a excellent defensive player and had a little speed (seven seasons with 10+ SBs).  While those are decent numbers, they just don’t scream “Hall of Fame”.   That is until you look at the mark he left in the playoffs.  His playoff totals look like a full season’s worth.  It’s unbelievable.  83 Runs, 128 Hits, 29 Doubles, 22 HRs, 80 RBI.  All Hall of Fames, including Cooperstown have traditionally given extra merit to those who played on dynasties.  You may disagree with that, but that is a factor in Hall of Fame induction.  To me Bernie’s solid regular season and extraordinary postseason are enough to get my vote. 

Rotoprofessor’s Take
Before I even look at the career numbers of Bernie Williams, my thoughts are that he was a good player, maybe even a very good player, who played for a great team. If he had played for the Rockies or Royals or Rangers or some other run of the mill team, would we be having this discussion? I just don’t believe we should award a player by enshrining him among the all-time greats because some great players who helped him win a few championships surrounded him. Yes, he was a tremendous player in the postseason and certainly played his part in helping the Yankees win 4 titles during his tenure with the team, but he was hardly a superstar. I’m not going to honor him because of what he did over 121 games, as opposed to the 2,076 he played during the regular season where he hit .297 with just 287 home runs and 147 stolen bases. Over 16 major league seasons, he appeared in just 5 All-Star games. Exactly what is special about that? The Yankees should honor him for his career, absolutely. Put up a monument for him or put him into the Yankees Hall of Fame, I really don’t care. He was a great Yankee who brought great prestige to the franchise, but he is far from one of the elite to have ever played the game. That means it is a resounding no for me, he would never get my vote.

Previous Hall of Fame Debates
Mark McGwire
Tim Raines

Eric Stashin the Rotoprofessor and I have decided to team up and debate Tim Raines’ Hall of Fame worthiness.

Numbers
2502 Games (50th All-time)
8872 At Bats (70th ll-time)
1571 Runs (49th All-time)
.294 Batting Average
.385 On-base %
.425 Slugging %
2605 Hits (71th All-time)
430 Doubles
113 Triples
170 Home Runs
980 RBI
1330 Walks (33rd All-time)
148 Intentional Walks (44th All-time)
808 Stolen Bases (5th All-time)

Five .300+ Seasons
Six 100+ Run Seasons
Six 30+ Double Seasons
Two 10+ Triple Seasons
Twelve 30+ SB Seasons
 Eleven 40+ SB Seasons
  Eight 50+ SB Seasons
   Six 70+ SB Seasons
    One 90 SB Season

Playoffs: 34 Games, 34 hits in 126 at bats (.270), 18 Runs, 7 Doubles, 1 HR, 6 RBI, 14 Walks, 3 Steals, 1 World Series Ring

Awards
1987 All-Star Game MVP
1986 Silver Slugger
7 All-Star Game Appearances
MVP Votes in 7 Seasons

Top Ten Finishes
Batting Average – Four Times (Batting Crown in 1986)
On-Base % – Seven Times (Led league in 1986)
Slugging % – Once
OPS – Four Times
Games – Once
At-Bats – Three Times
Runs – Eight Times (Led league in 1983 & 1987)
Hits – Six Times
Total Bases – Four Times
Doubles – Three Times (Led league in 1984)
Triples – Nine Times
Walks – Six Times
Intentional Walks – Four Times
Stolen Base – Eleven Times (Led league in ‘81, ‘82, ‘83 & ‘84)

Hall of Fame Yardsticks
Black Ink: Batting – 20 (105) (Average HOFer ≈ 27)
Gray Ink: Batting – 114 (178) (Average HOFer ≈ 144)
HOF Standards: Batting – 46.6 (93) (Average HOFer ≈ 50)
HOF Monitor: Batting – 89.5 (177) (Likely HOFer > 100)

Lester’s Take
Rock Raines had the misfortune of playing in the shadow of Rickey Henderson.  While he isn’t in the same category as Rickey, he was an amazing leadoff man.  He achieved one of the thresholds (1500 runs) that I feel virtually gain you automatic entry to the Hall of Fame.  The majority of players that have crossed that threshold are either in, will evenutally be in, or are ineligible (Pete Rose).  Not to mention he was one of the most prolific base stealers in the history of the game.  He had six 100 run season (one of 133), seven consecutive 70+ stolen base seasons, 40+ steals in 11 years of a 12 year stretch.  An impressive stat to me is the number of times he was intentionally walked.  He’s 44th of all-time with 48 IBBs.  He must have been feared as a hitter to intentionally put him on 1st knowing you probably just gave away two or three bases in the process given his ability to swip bases.  He also had eight straight years with at least 7 triples, and he managed to win a World Series ring with the Yankees.  Not only did he play in the shadows of Rickey Henderson, he had the misfortune of playing his best seasons in Montreal.  He was one of the best in the game for a long time.  For that I feel he earned a spot in Cooperstown.

Rotoprofessor’s Take
When I look at the career of Tim Raines, to me it is no a brainer that he does not belong in the Hall of Fame. To be enshrined, you should be a dominant player of your generation, not someone who stuck around for 23 seasons and compiled some impressive career statistics. Don’t get me wrong, Raines was a very good, if not great, lead off hitter who had a ton of speed. He had 808 career stolen bases, but more then half, 454 to be exact, of which came in a 6-year period from 1981-1986. That means in his other 17 seasons playing in the major leagues, he had just 354 stolen bases, hardly that impressive. He scored a ton of runs, but had just six seasons where he eclipsed the 100 mark. Brett Butler, a player who I think we would all agree is not worthy of being inducted into the Hall of Fame, had the same six seasons scoring 100 runs. He was a good hitter, but his career average was under .300. Maybe it was the shadow of Ricky Henderson that hurts Raines’ candidacy, but even with the SB’s his numbers just don’t scream elite player. He had some very good seasons, but he never truly dominated the league. To me, it is possible for a player to stick around too long and ruin the reputation he could have had. People don’t remember the great player that you were, instead the player who just sat on the bench as a reserve, trying to hold onto the game for as long as possible. I know I said last week that if a player was a dominant force of his time, the rest didn’t matter. I still think that applies. To me, however, Raines just wasn’t the dominating force. He was a great player who was one of the elite stolen bases artists, but that was about all he brought to the table. Good elsewhere, but not great, and that doesn’t get you my vote.

There you have it folks.  Feel free to weigh in and take a side.

Previous Hall of Fame Debates
Mark McGwire